AI and creator-journalism: The race for trust, expertise, and attention

[00:00:04] Bryan DeAngelis: Welcome to this week's episode of What's At Stake. I'm your host, Bryan DeAngelis, senior partner and head of the Washington office here at Penta. Today, we're gonna be talking about how the communications landscape is once again undergoing a significant transformation, probably the most significant transformation since the rise of social media.

Audiences are increasingly getting their information directly from creators, podcasts, and now LLM platforms that barely existed just a few years ago. At the same time, traditional news organizations are rethinking how they distribute content and reach their audiences. We have a great guest today, the person who has been at the center of these conversations for years, Sara Goo, President of the Washington Post Creator.

Before joining the Washington Post Creator, she served as editor-in-chief of Axios, helped oversee one of the nation's largest newsrooms as managing editor at NPR. Sara is also no stranger to What's at Stake. She joined us back in 2023 for a conversation about the evolving business of news, and since then the pace of change has only accelerated.

So we have a lot to dive into. Sara, thank you very much for coming back on What's at Stake.

[00:01:30] Sara Goo: Oh, it's nice to be here. Thanks, Bryan.

[00:01:32] Bryan DeAngelis: So let's dive right back into the time machine, if you will. 2023, you spoke a lot about how much has changed in the last 20 years leading up to then.

And we were talking about things like delivery of news via email and maybe just the early kind of hints of what AI would be, how it would impact the industry. So I'd love to get your thoughts there of now how are we thinking about the future of not only legacy media and local news, but just how everything feels like it has changed so dramatically in the last three years.

[00:02:10] Sara Goo: Yeah. What a difference just three years makes. I think some of those things sound so quaint now. But... clearly, I mean, every journalism conference I've been to, every dinner table with media executives I've been at in the last year has been focused on two topics, AI and creators, because those two issues have really transformed how consumers get information and the bottom line for our business.

And I feel like we really reached a tipping point last year, I think, if we wanna put a finger on it, where a lot of studies show that for the first time Americans pointed to social media and video as their number one source of where they get information today, and I don't think we're going back.

That surpassed television, it surpassed online news websites, it surpassed print newspaper, radio, et cetera. AI is climbing up that list too.

[00:03:02] Bryan DeAngelis: Yeah.

[00:03:02] Sara Goo: So I think that this is only going to accelerate. And of course, being in the media business, we know, we're used to constant change and disruption.

I think what's surprising here is just the pace of that change is happening at a much more accelerated rate than we've seen before. So we have to be ready for it, and that's one reason I rejoined The Washington Post. I actually started my career there as a reporter many years ago to start a new business aimed at the reality of this creator transformation of where, you know, look at where trust is growing, you look at where the audience attention is going, and you look at where dollars are going.

And to me the answer for all those questions is creator. And it's really fascinating too. I love this business, and I rejoined The Washington Post to start a whole new business for them focused on creating new content with independent creators. So we're outside of the newsroom but that enables us a little more freedom to work with independent creators.

[00:04:00] Bryan DeAngelis: I'd love to dive into that part a little bit more. Do you, as you lead this new effort see it more as a change in the way news is produced, or really more in a way of how the news is delivered to the audience and consumed by the audience?

[00:04:18] Sara Goo: Yeah. I actually think of it as broader than news. I think of it as our information ecosystem, right?

[00:04:25] Sara Goo: And so I actually think about it as a reporter way back in the day when I was reporting on government and business for the Washington Post. When I was doing a story, I would call up the experts, and get my information, collect that. I would call the lawyer or the doctor or the politician or the government analyst and collect all this information and to write my story and put it all together and synthesize it for the audience.

Well, today, those experts are creating their own content and putting it out on social media, on their own platforms, in their Substack newsletter, et cetera. So in a way we have today is a much more fragmented media landscape where the audience can go kind of directly to the source or the sources, right?

And so that is exciting in a way because consumers can get that one-to-one relationship, but it's also a lot of work for them. A lot of us have to go filter through and who can we trust and how do we consume all this information that feels very overwhelming. And, I think that presents opportunities and challenges for us.

And so I think for me, the Washington Post and as a journalist, I care about the quality of information people are consuming. When you're putting out quality information as a journalist, you kind of feel like sometimes you're swimming upstream and trying to fight against all this other information that may not be true that people are consuming and you feel like you're trying to get the truth out there.

Well, similarly, what I see as an opportunity for creators is, if we can create this network of trusted, vetted creators who are the experts or subject matter experts that you can trust, and we can work with them and co-produce content with them that we fact-check, that we work with, that we can legally review before that content is put out there, in just a kind of similar way that we do in, with journalists, then that is a great delivery.

That's a great product that we're putting out there for consumers. And so whether you get quality information from experts directly or whether you get it from journalists from the Washington Post, that's a great service.

[00:06:34] Bryan DeAngelis: That's right, yes. And you raise a good point of how it's such a more fractured environment now, and I imagine what you're doing is particularly helpful for new voices.

For example, I'm a public affairs leader, not unlike a lot of others that are probably drowning in newsletters and newspapers they read every day. I've been using AI tools to collate who are the best Substack writers, thinkers, experts on a particular topic, build me a digest that comes into my email where I can get a look at all of them.

But if you're a new voice, I don't know, that you're necessarily being found by those AI platforms, and then there, your question of trust, and I imagine part of what you're doing is putting that stamp of approval of The Washington Post on those creators gives them that lift to get their voice and expertise out there more too.

[00:07:30] Sara Goo: Exactly. So what we're doing is we're launching and co-producing social video shows. We're starting with social video creators, and we've launched one show each month with a creator in a different area of expertise, and it's been really fun. So we just started three months ago.

We started with a personal finance creator, launched a show with a creator named JC Rodriguez, a series of six to ten videos. Then last month we did another with Dr. Jake, who's a psychiatrist, who we did a series with about how to protect your brain in a digital world. Very different topic. And then we just launched a travel series called The Upgrade Guide about travel tips, upgrades that are worth it. So each one's very different. Next one we have a series on women's health.

So each one is meant to be very social forward, different audience, very practical, built for today, and, we- very targeted, so very lifestyle content differentiated from The Washington Post. And the idea here is we need to be where the audience is, we need to be engaging in a way the audience is used to, we need to be modern, for today's communication era and what, how to reach people we haven't been reaching in the past. And we're learning a ton. It's been really fun.

[00:08:49] Bryan DeAngelis: I bet. I bet. I'm curious how you either recruit or develop the talent as a media leader for a number of different kind of marquee brands in the media space. How do you think about balancing- the standards of those outlets with maybe some of the personality and approach that a creator needs to take to their audience.

And do you find you're more training folks from within the system to be those creators, or going outside and recruiting folks to come join The Washington Post Creator?

[00:09:25] Sara Goo: Yeah, good question. We're looking for creators who already produce high-quality content, so that's a filter. Who already have a certain audience size. Who are already reaching an audience maybe that we're not. So it is a strategy for us as a company in terms of audience growth and reach, but also meeting that high standard of quality that is, that we expect and our audience expects as well.

So there are some amazing tools. You mentioned AI. There's some great AI tools that can scan content that a creator has already produced to make sure that it's up to the quality level that you want and that you need. And then after that it becomes a conversation, an outreach, a conversation around interest in working together. A conversation around content production, around ethics, all those things that are necessary in any partnership especially when it comes to content creation.

So I would say it's not too unfamiliar to me because it's kind of like working with a freelancer. These aren't journalists per se, but they are in a way very similar in terms of the way that they're working and what they're producing is not that far off.

[00:10:30] Bryan DeAngelis: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You mentioned using AI tools, so I have to ask. All the buzz this year has been generative engine optimization.

What are the LLMs actually pulling through on different topics. I'm curious how much you're looking at how much, a ChatGPT or a Claude is already pulling in some of these creators' work, or a signal of the topics maybe that are driving this and that helps inform where you go, recruit and build up audiences.

[00:11:06] Sara Goo: We use AI mostly in looking for how to select the right creator. So that's part of the process. We don't use AI in any of the content production. In fact, we don't allow it, and so that's a real value that we have because we think that what the audience wants is authentic content.

And I think the audiences are really clear about that, particularly when it comes to sharing information that's fact-driven, when we're producing, interviews and things like that, and a lot of this content. So that's one area is a no-go. But in terms of how do we make production easier, how do we think about the right brand partner for sales, that kind of stuff, research that any company does, this is a very AI-forward company at The Washington Post, and we're thinking about that in terms of how we create our products.

We know that, on the news side, that news is going to be more personalized to you and should be more tailored to you and your interests. So as a company, we're thinking about that all the time both in terms of how we do our sales and in terms of how we develop our future products. And so it's exciting to be at a company that is, and I think we all have to be thinking about how to, think about AI, both to, protect our business from a copyright perspective- ... how we inform it into, in, ingest it into our work and make it part of our work, and also our products that we're building.

[00:12:29] Bryan DeAngelis: I do think of The Washington Post, obviously, your publisher behind it, owner Jeff Bezos, very AI-forward.

You're coming from a place that is very AI-forward, Axios, and Jim VandeHei has led a lot of, I think, the conversation on what AI is gonna mean for the media, and I think he called it a post-news era that we're getting into. And almost these super journalists where that subject matter expertise is so valuable to both the LLMs and as people maybe move more towards an internet ecosystem where they're living within their chat spaces instead of clicking all over the internet for more information.

I'm curious to get your maybe crystal ball forward-looking view of where you see AI continuing to push where we're going on the media landscape and especially the creator side of it.

[00:13:31] Sara Goo: Yeah, I think I agree with a lot of Jim's perspective that AI's pushing a lot of change in journalism very quickly, and each media company really has to position itself today in terms of the value it delivers to the audience, right?

And when you can quickly get an answer to your question about the news through AI very quickly and, the idea of news as a commodity is very real. You have to present what you're uniquely delivering that no other news organization can deliver, and that's a question every company is grappling with, right?

[00:14:08] Bryan DeAngelis: Right.

[00:14:09] Sara Goo: And so talent is obviously one of those. Unique, original investigative reporting could be the answer for another. Individual personalities could be another. And that could come in the form of creators. That could come in the form of journalists. I think there's a lot of answers to that, but at the end of the day, it's gonna be content that people feel they can't get anywhere else, and that has always been true, right?

No matter what challenge we've had in technology or disruption in our business. And I think that, like I said before, I think AI is forcing us just to grapple with the offense and the defense, right? We have to protect the IP that we have, all those things that do make us unique, and we also have to think about, like, all those things about how do we work as efficiently as possible, both with our competitors as well as, as a business ourselves and in the products that we're building, and how do we utilize AI to do better reporting?

There's so much data out there that is now so much easier for us to utilize and to put to work with AI. So, there's a lot to be excited about. I know there's a lot of fear out there as well. And so I think it's all about getting over the fear to what we can embrace and be smart about it, and that requires a lot of cultural embrace about how we adapt it to all aspects of our business. So that is the challenge for sure.

And is really about the leadership of a company to make sure that it is delivered.

[00:15:36] Bryan DeAngelis: It, is exciting and I'd love to get your perspective if, frankly if I'm way off on this, but one of the things I'm excited about I heard it on another podcast maybe a few weeks ago, and I wish I could remember exactly who was saying it, but how beneficial this might be for local news and the idea of creators who are subject matter experts on their local community, and that could be more on the culture side, restaurants, hotels, tourism.

I have high school age kids that are very interested in high school sports and what's happening there. It could be a number of different ways. And having that ability now and the tools with AI to really, there might be an audience demand now of what is the best hotel room to pick in this Hilton in Manhattan to get the best view, or whatever it may be.

And somebody needs to feed that expertise into those platforms, and that seems to me a great role for local journalism in different ways,

[00:16:44] Sara Goo: There's a lot of local creators who have audiences bigger than the traditional local newspaper or local media and have already built an audience, whether that's local sports or whether that's entertainment.

Those are the natural first places where this is starting, or travel, like you said. So all of- these categories that used to be fully owned, a monopoly by the local newspaper or local TV are getting challenged by creators because they're creating content constantly round the clock.

It's engaging. It's reaching a much bigger audience at a lower cost, right? And brands are connecting with them directly.

[00:17:21] Bryan DeAngelis: Yes.

[00:17:21] Sara Goo: So it's smart. I just met a creator out of Arizona last week at a TikTok event who's built like a massive audience, is making quite a great living now just out of posting content she started in Scottsdale, Arizona.

And now she told me her whole goal is to put TripAdvisor out of business, and I'm like, "You probably can." It's amazing how quickly you can scale as a creator, and I do think that local is a huge opportunity.

[00:17:49] Bryan DeAngelis: I think you're right. Over the last, call it 20 years, we've seen local news struggle and that'd be a hard place for even legacy media outlets to invest in. But is this an opportunity for that to come back into some of these trusted media platforms, like the Washington Post?

[00:18:09] Sara Goo: Yeah, I think so. We've experimented with it a little bit when we first launched last fall with a local creator.

And I was just speaking with group of local news publishers last month, and a lot of them are experimenting with this in different ways. Most local news publishers are thinking about how do I work with a local creator in a way that is beneficial for both parties. And it's tricky, right?

It's new. I think we're all learning about this and learning about how do we partner together to grow audience and grow revenue. There isn't a model for this, and so we're inventing it as we go along. But I think there is some obvious opportunity, because we see the trajectory of where the business is going, where the audience is growing.

So I do think there's a lot of opportunity here. For us at The Post, we are focused right now on national creators, national content, just because I think that is the first obvious place to start. But I do think there's opportunity in both.

[00:19:10] Bryan DeAngelis: Shifting gears a little bit, we've talked a lot about the audience and the creator side of it.

As we obviously sit and work with a lot of companies and brands that want to engage with the media. How do they work with the Washington Post Creator, that network, and the work you all are doing there?

[00:19:30] Sara Goo: Oh, great question. Yeah, so I guess there's two ways. One, we've built a whole business around social video sponsorship around the different verticals of the creators that we're working with. So we've got a whole slate of creators we're working with, depending on the audience you wanna reach. And we're open for business and excited. We're talking already with a lot of brands.

And it's opened us up to new conversations with brands we haven't worked with before, so that's really exciting for us, and a big part of the point of what we're doing is to open up those opportunities. So whether that's travel or tech, AI, there are a lot of tech AI creators out there.

It's such a more effective way of targeting and messaging through creators. So that has been really exciting to see. So that's one direct way, just through our Washington Post sales team. And then second we also launched a newsletter called Verified that just covers the creator economy.

So that's been exciting. It's hosted by Dylan Wells, and we're gonna be launching an event series around just conversations about the creator economy, which is... Creators are disrupting, as we've been talking about so many industries. Not just news, but entertainment, sports. I mean, you name it.

Politics. So there's so much to dig into. There isn't truly an industry that hasn't been impacted, and so it's important to understand what's happening, how it's happening. The bottom line is impacted in every space, and so there's a lot to talk about. Small business. Creators are the driver of small business growth in this country right now.

[00:21:07] Bryan DeAngelis: Sure. Yes.

[00:21:07] Sara Goo: So there's a lot there too. I think also in Washington, around creators and their needs as small business owners. So that's another area that we're kind of two-pronged. So one around the creator economy, what is there to understand there? How can we help people understand the stakeholders and the different topics and industries?

And then the second part is sponsorship of the content we're creating, partnering with creators who are trusted and vetted, and, helping advertisers make that whole process a lot easier so they don't have to go figure out, "Well, which creator should I work with?" "Who can I trust?"

That process can feel very time-consuming, very inefficient. We aim to make that whole process just, take the headache out for everybody.

[00:21:51] Bryan DeAngelis: Yeah. That's excellent. I try to end every episode with this question, and it's perfect 'cause you were on three years ago, but we won't fact-check anything from then. If we have you on again hopefully it'll be before three years, but in another three years- What's your sense on how much more the world and the media landscape has changed on this front?

[00:22:15] Sara Goo: Oh, boy. Well, I have a feeling we'll still be talking about these two topics and they will look radically different from what we're talking about now.

And I'd love to have a crystal ball, honestly, to know where AI will be in three years. Hopefully it won't have destroyed our planet yet.

[00:22:32] Bryan DeAngelis: Hopefully. Yeah.

[00:22:32] Sara Goo: Or our business. I try to be on the optimistic side of AI, truly. And and I think that I want to believe that just like other challenges that we've had to our business and our industry, that we will adapt. We have to adapt to what our audience needs, how consumers want to consume information. And I remain optimistic that people want quality information at the end of the day. They do. They just want it delivered in ways that are convenient for their life. So we will get there, and AI delivers on that.

Creators deliver on that. So we as the news and the news business have to adapt to those realities. So we will get there, and I think that these two topics will not be going away. I just think we're gonna be light years ahead of where we are right now.

[00:23:19] Bryan DeAngelis: Seems like we're light years ahead every- every couple of weeks. But I agree with you. I think the demand for knowledge and expertise is gonna be a constant throughout, maybe time. And the delivery and how that's packaged is probably gonna continue to evolve. So, we'd love to have you back on soon to talk about that but really appreciate you joining us today.

[00:23:43] Sara Goo: Thank you for having me. Great to talk with you.

[00:23:45] Bryan DeAngelis: For all our listeners, I encourage you to check out The Washington Post Creator website, wpcreator.washingtonpost.com.

You can sign up for their verified newsletter, and we'll add some of these links into the show notes as well.

Remember, as always, to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts and follow us on X @pentagrp, and on LinkedIn, @Penta Group. I'm your host, Bryan DeAngelis. Thanks for listening to What's At Stake.